Holy City Homeless - Stacey Denaux

Frogmore Stew with Grace Cowen - S1-Ep5 - Stacy Denaux

Grace: 00:00:14

Homelessness is defined as an individual or family who lacks a fixed, regular, and adequate nighttime residence, such as those living in emergency shelters, transitional housing. Or places not meant for habitation in South Carolina, there are many agencies, both government funded and privately funded that are working to address this.

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[00:00:50] We're seeing more people who are elderly in our shelters, more folks struggling with disabilities. We're also seeing folks who are working and they're working generally at better wages than we've seen. But even those wages aren't enough to afford the housing in our community.

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[00:01:42] She's helped to create both housing court and homeless court, two new court structures that streamline court proceedings and see better outcomes for all parties involved. Her passion, energy, and knowledge is second to none. And I know you'll enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed talking to her. Let's get to the stew.

Grace: 00:01:58

Stacey. It's so great to have you on frog more studio. Welcome.

Stacy: 00:02:05

Well, thanks, Grace. Happy to be here.

Grace: 00:02:07

I'm so excited to talk about this because I think there are so many dimensions of what you do that. We see every day, but we don't really think deeply about in doing some research and talking to you and just knowing you over the years and understanding a little bit about what you do.

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Stacy 00:02:34

Sure. I think like any sort of state of being or situation, there are sort of degrees of homelessness and the basics of being homeless or the basic, the most simple definition is someone who lacks a permanent nighttime residence.

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[00:03:05] It's someone with a disability. The technical definition is really someone who has been homeless for 12 months or has had multiple experiences of homelessness over the past several years. The other key difference around someone who's chronically homeless versus say, episodically homeless or in more of a transitional situation is that person has a disability.

Grace: 00:03:26

Okay. So in that. First scenario, an episodic or temporary setback, is it rare for there to be a cycle of homelessness or are you less prone to go back into being homeless if you've experienced it once?

Stacy: 00:03:38

So if we think about homelessness as a continuum or as a cycle, there really is sort of that immediate falling into homelessness and maybe you find yourself in a shelter, you get some services and you move back into housing.

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Grace 00:04:15

And when we break the cycle, what does that look like?

Stacy: 00:04:20

It's very individual because that person is no longer experiencing homelessness. But for a community, what we're saying is, when someone becomes homeless, we have the resources to move them back into housing, and we have the resources to help them never become homeless again. So you can break the cycle for a person, but what we want is to break that cycle as a community.

Grace: 00:04:43

You just answered some of the questions or maybe reactions is the better word that many of us feel or have heard others say, like, why would someone be homeless? There are shelters or why doesn't that person have a job? They look perfectly capable, which I guess really simplifies what is actually a much more complex problem.

Stacy: 00:05:04

I think it's easier for most people to comprehend. being caused by something or by a behavior. So it may be easier for me to accept that someone is homeless because they have a mental illness or because they're addicted to drugs.

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Grace 00:06:00

That is also sort of hard for the human mind to comprehend that contradiction. Like, well, I'm going to work, but I still can't afford rent or a place to live. It does become obviously much more complicated than simply get a job and you can pay your rent.

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[00:06:34] But for affordable housing, that's such a conceptual thing of how to fix it, that it's much more complicated to process that and understand that that's the reason.

Stacy: 00:06:45

Right. And I think we all know or have been or have someone in our family or a relationship in some way, shape or form with somebody who has a mental illness, who has or has an addiction.

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[00:07:19] Housing is the only thing that ends homelessness. We can move someone into a shelter. They're still technically homeless because they do not have a permanent fixed nighttime resident. They are off the street and they are safe. particularly if they're in 180 place, but they are still technically homeless.

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[00:07:44] according to University of Pennsylvania study, the number of people 65 and older who are homeless will nearly triple by the year 2030. And experts say the housing affordability crisis, along with high inflation is just chipping away at older adults fixed incomes.

Grace: 00:08:00

One thing that I find really fascinating is how. Some of our state front facing laws are contributing to homelessness. So out of the top 50 cities ranking for evictions in the country, we have three cities in our state. Number one is North Charleston, South Carolina. Number eight is Columbia, and Charleston is number 32.

Stacy: 00:08:25

Yes. Having the highest rate of eviction in the country is not something to be proud of. We're at the top of a list we don't want to be on at all. And the laws in South Carolina really do, as you said, favor the landlord. That's often the first resort in this state, not the last resort, because it's affordable.

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[00:09:02] You don't have that right when it comes to an eviction. So right there, the fight isn't fair because you're in a system that you don't understand. You don't understand your rights as a tenant. And you certainly are intimidated and scared and don't understand what's going on. Going on in court,

Grace: 00:09:14

And I also want to point out that I don't think anyone is blaming landlords, right? If you own rental property, you have bills to pay to, and you depend on the income from that rental property to pay those bills. So it's not choosing one side or the other. It's understanding there needs to be even ground on which people stand when they have an issue regarding rent.

Stacy: 00:09:38

Oh, absolutely. And statistically, we have seen when a tenant who's being evicted is represented in court by an attorney, the landlord is much more likely to walk away being made whole again, because you have a fair fight and you have an attorney who isn't in an emotional crisis, isn't facing Mm mm. You know, their belongings being put out on the street, who understands the process and can really manage and maneuver and mediate through that situation, even if you can't preserve the tenancy for that tenant, that landlord is much like more likely to be made whole. So, yeah, it's not to vilify landlords. They are, in many cases, particularly the population we work with are the heroes for ending homelessness because they are willing to work with clients who they know, based on the fact that a homeless organization or service provider is working with that client. They're going to have other barriers.

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Grace 00:10:33

One thing that is also really important to understand is that if you have an eviction on your record, it is much more difficult to find housing in the future. So essentially When that happens to someone, you're taking an already bad situation and making it much more difficult for them to be housed.

Stacy: 00:10:53

And evictions are not something that are ever expunged. So, if I have a series of speeding tickets, I can take a safe driver course or whatever and have the points off my license are restored or my insurance is made, and essentially those speeding tickets go away.

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[00:11:23] So that follows you forever. So often what we see in housing court, when we do have an attorney involved representing that tenant, we may not be able to Preserve that landlord tenant relationship, but we could keep the eviction off the record. So we agree to part ways. The landlord gets paid, gets made whole to the degree possible.

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Grace 00:11:54

So Stacey, you mentioned this thing called housing court. How did that come about?

Stacy: 00:11:57

Housing courts are very unique. Charleston and Columbia were pioneers a number of years ago with a system of amazing organizations coming together to actually petition the state Supreme Court. to allow magistrate courts to set up housing courts. So essentially telling magistrates, cause that's where evictions happen.

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[00:12:51] So now the work is, how do we roll that out beyond Columbia and Charleston? And Columbia and Charleston are serving as models for other states and other places that don't have right to counsel and some of the other challenges that we see here in South Carolina.

Grace: 00:13:04

And it helps people, right? Oh, by the way, yes. It has great outcomes.

Stacy: 0:13:08

It has great outcomes. And, you know, it's everyone. tends to what, when that process happens, it's, you know, the court administrators are happier. The people managing the dockets are happier. It's a much more efficient way of managing the court.

Grace: 00:13:22

So can you describe the difference between homeless court and housing court?

Stacy: 00:13:26

So homeless court is something unique to the city of Charleston here in South Carolina. A number of years ago, the city recognized that there were a large number of people, primarily the same people, Cycling through the city jail. They're being picked up for minor violations, public urination or loitering or public intoxication.

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[00:14:10] It's just, again, back to that cycle. I'm just cycling through this process. So, housing court allows a judge to grant someone who's been cited for these series of offenses the opportunity to not go to jail while they're waiting for their hearing. And be connected to a service provider, so someone who's going to help them overcome their homelessness because the whole premise here is I wouldn't be doing these things in public if I had a home, I wouldn't be sleeping on a park bench. If I had a home now, you're connected with services. You have maybe a little bit more incentive to stay connected to those services. And when you're hearing happens, it actually happens here at 1 80 place in our conference room, not in a courtroom.

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[00:15:08] No one, I don't think, never expects or wants to be in a bad situation, but it's not the situation, it's how you handle it. I'm dealing with it, and I'm gonna deal with it. Don't look at me being homeless. I'm Look at me as a human being who has made mistakes and he's trying to get it together.

Grace: 00:15:23

You've read this story. There was an article in the New Yorker magazine in 2006 written by Malcolm Gladwell called Million Dollar Murray. And it essentially followed this man that lived in Reno who was homeless over I think 10 years and looked at the cost of homelessness.

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[00:16:09] Those are the people that you see sleeping on the sidewalk. And the premise of this was how much did it cost for the city to not do anything? And it came back that it cost a million dollars a year for the city to not do anything with Murray. Which means like he'd go to jail, he'd get released from jail, he'd go to the hospital.

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Stacy 00:17:11

It is. You solve the most expensive. It might not be the largest number of people, but these are the most expensive people. When we talk about someone like a Murray and the services that they need to be successful and to, and to live a more fulfilling life, it often revolves around the term of art or the term of services, this permanent supportive housing.

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[00:17:49] So think about one ER visit when you don't have insurance, one ride an ambulance and multiply that over this very small number of people. But they're using lots of publicly funded resources. There have been multiple studies across the country. And what's the dollar amount? Is it a million dollars? Is it 4 million across these, you know, 10 or 12 people in your community.

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[00:18:32] For a year, 36, 000 to keep them homeless, 12, 000 to keep them housed. You can do the math. That's on average. So, now we've just saved this community. And, the likelihood that this person who is now housed, even if they don't ever get health insurance, or they don't ever have a way to pay to go to the doctor, they are more likely than not going to reduce the number of times they need to go to the ER.

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Grace 00:19:10

Well, there's an interesting line in the article that says, the current philosophy of welfare holds that government assistance should be temporary and conditional to avoid creating dependency. But the most complicated people to work with are those who have been homeless for so long that going back to the streets isn't scary to them.

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Stacy 00:19:39

Well, there are those of us who believe that housing is a basic human right, but that's a big leap for a lot of people. But the idea of Certain people are worthy of housing and certain people aren't, and I think that's kind of getting at what you're, you're talking about.

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[00:20:08] But if you can't wrap your head around the humanity of it, wrap your head around the finances of it, and it is more expensive to keep you homeless, whether it's for a year or 30 years or 40 years, it is much more expensive to keep you homeless.

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[00:20:46] I didn't want to live because it's just so hard to deal with.

Grace: 00:20:50

Maybe it's because it's so much easier. For our brains to not individualize that person and see them as your sibling or your parent and, and really tug at our humanity. It's just so much easier to see the numbers.

Stacy: 00:21:06

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you can have the head and the heart.

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[00:21:29] The only way to get them help is to go to jail or to go through the ER and then get to the jail. That's wildly expensive. Let's couple this person with. an appropriate, safe, adequate place to live and then provide them those supportive services to address those other issues. It's much more affordable.

Grace: 00:21:45

It's also something one about having enough space to put them in a town where we already don't have enough, even affordable housing. And then to understanding that it's not going to be this a plus B equals C outcome, right? Every situation is unique and there are going to be places where. date line could come in and say, look how this is failing based on one or two cases.

Stacy: 00:22:07

Well, I think, you know, in the recovery world, we accept that relapse is part of the recovery process, right? So if you accept that relapse is a part of being homeless, whatever that relapse may look like, and then you develop the systems to support people through those relapses and get them back to. The preferred state and accept that it might happen once.

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[00:22:46] It's that sort of learned behavior, and this is an old reference because I'm getting older every day, but the movie, the movie Castaway Tom Hanks, he's on the island. He's talking to the volleyball. He's, you know, learning to cook and live on this island. He gets rescued. He's in the hotel room after he's rescued and he's sleeping on the floor because the bed was uncomfortable.

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[00:23:23] We all came out of our tents and had a fire in the middle of our encampment and we cooked dinner and talked and there was a sense of community. Now I'm in a part of town that I'm not familiar with. I'm in this great one bedroom apartment. I have a TV. I have a phone. I have a bed. I can cook and clean for myself, but I am isolated and my friends are still out on the street.

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[00:23:54] Here's your apartment. No, this goes back to that forever support or that permanent support and supporting you through those times of relapse and helping you develop a new definition of what feels normal for you.

Grace: 0:24:05

Stacy 00:24:21

We have to create more affordable housing and address wages. I think how you fix it is, if we're going to eradicate poverty, we could start there, but let's say we're not.

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[00:24:51] So that's how you end it. You don't end it by never seeing someone on the street. You recognize that there will be people who are going to fall into homelessness for whatever reasons, but you're not going to let them linger and you're going to make sure they have the support so it never happens again.

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[00:25:22] In our community. Pick your town. Let's say we have 10 people who are there. Those frequent flyers. They're the ones that are in and out of jail in and out of the hospitals. So now five of them aren't. We've got five of them in permanent supportive housing. They've been stable for a year or two. We've now saved our community X.

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[00:25:59] Let's do more of the thing that's actually getting the result we want. Invest in housing, not just arresting people for these low level homeless offenses.

Grace: 00:26:06

You hear people say, I don't want my tax dollars used for endless housing for people that could have a job. And the response to that is, it's actually a better use of your tax dollars to house someone to use those resources less that your other tax dollars are paying for. And those resources can be allocated better. within those systems, and it makes your community better. You know, it's a moral obligation to take care of your neighbor, right? That's why we have community.

Last question, Stacy. So when you're driving down the street and you stop at an intersection and there's someone asking for help with a cardboard sign, what do you do?

Stacy: 00:26:47

I think that it ends up being such a personal. Choice, because you have empathy. You want to help this person. You help in the way you can, when and where you can. I do not believe that if you give someone who is down on their luck and asking for that support that you are enabling them, because whatever you're able to do for them on the side of the road is a very quick, temporary fix.

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[00:27:23] You do what feels right for you in that moment, but you may have provided them a resource to get a good meal, a resource to, you know, if after a day of panhandling or of getting money, you're able to go get a cheap motel room and have a place to sleep that night. That's some immediate relief for that person. And I don't think that can be undervalued.

Grace: 00:27:41

Stacy, this has been awesome. You are such a wealth of information and you are doing such awesome work and I, I just, I feel like there's, there's so much more that we could talk about. So I do hope you'll come back sometime and we can catch up with you and see all the progress that you've made and really, really, truly making an immediate difference in this state. So cannot thank you enough for being with us.

Stacy: 00:28:04

Well, it was a pleasure talking with you. And as you probably picked up on, I could go on for hours. It is a complicated issue and we just, you know, we need more people passionate about the issue, but also true believers that we can fix this and, and end homelessness for our communities and our, our country.

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Grace 00:28:29

That's all the stew for today. Talk to you next week

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